My general thoughts/views

By Mr. D

So Duncan; what are you general thoughts/views?

Well that’s a good question.  (If you can be bothered to read all this then I owe you a pint!)

I hope to either make this clear in the following post or leave you questioning your own existence.  And what I mean by that is I want you to think about what I’m saying, if only because I’m a little inebriated right now, I’ve been discussing these topics in depth and I’m not exceptionally good at summarising my thoughts into anything concise that people can digest.

Now let’s get to the point here.

I have been engaged in a discussion (a very engaging discussion I’ll have you know; hence the aforementioned engagement) about religion and philosophy and such*.

Anywho; the point is that some of my housemates an I (after pissing out the window and comparing with them the length and girth of my membrum virile) were talking in a general sense and we got onto the subject of religion and ultimately philosophy.  So now I’m going to give you my opinion on the whole matter

I’m not sure many of my peers are aware of this, but I think about philosophy in general pretty much all the time.  It’s basically the reason I study physics (that and the the inspiration of one Dr. Phil Plait AKA the bad astronomer [new book out soon :D ] AKA the president of the JREF).  Anyway, I think I’m behaving in my usual rambling way so I’ll attempt to get to the point.

The discussion concerned religion primarily.  I can’t think how the discussion began, but when drink is involved this is inevitably what the subject moves on to.  Anyway we discussed what we thought were the implications and teachings of many different religions.  Now here are my thoughts.  I’m an Atheist (check out the scarlet A on the blogroll on the right), I have been for a few years, but I haven’t always been.  I’ve been through a lot over the years and I’m still relatively young.  But at some point fairly recently I committed myself to the path of scientific discovery, critical thinking and so on.  Anyway, the point I’m so arduously trying to reach is that from a purely scientific perspective there is no reason to accept any faith whatsoever.  If i was raised as anything it was a christian, but i wouldn’t call myself one, nor would i say anyone in my immediate family belongs to that particular faith.  But I grew up in what was essentially a christian dominated society.  This had an affect on me.

When I was very young I can remember being taught (In school no less)  about the christian faith.  Now I was young and easily persuaded as one might imagine.  Therefore I believed pretty much everything I was being told.   Anyway, it was many years later that I began to think for myself.  I had been perfectly willing to accept whatever I was being told by an authority figure because I didn’t know any better.

So essentially what I’m trying to say is that I’ve rejected all kinds of religion based on a lack of evidence.  It’s essentially the Russel’s teapot argument.  All I’m saying is that there’s no proof of any god that I’m aware of and if there were, I’d sign up right now.  Basically the best position I can take as a scientist is to say “I don’t know, but since there is no evidence to back-up the original assertion, I must assume that the assertion is incorrect”.  In other words, if a scientist devises an experiment to test whether or not god exists.  His hypothesis is “god exists” his experiment sets out to provide evidence for this assertion.  If no evidence is found for the existence of god, the scientist must reject the hypothesis and accept the null hypothesis (ie god doesn’t exist).  Any argument which contradicts this idea of evidence and/or experimentation in unfalsifiable and cannot be accepted as proof of god’s existence.  This very roughly sums up the scientific method and is essentially my main argument for not belonging to any religion.  Of course, if the evidence were to show that it was all true after all then I’d sign up without hesitation.  And I suspect a lot of other doubters would do the same.

Assuming you’re still with me, this bring us neatly to the next conversation piece.  Do I exist?  Do you exist?  How can anyone know the answer to these questions?  Based on the current level of consciousness we are capable of achieving I would say we are not capable of answering these questions.  But I would also say that the questions themselves are irrelevant.  The question of whether or not I (or you) exist makes no demands of the real (ie testable) world.  Therefore whatever i perceive to be real (whether real or not) is real within my own conscious construct.  And since all I can possibly know exists within this construct, surely the best I can possibly do is to assume what i perceive as real to be so.  The only productive viewpoint I can take (whether in my own construct or in the actual real world [whatever that is]) is to assume that i exist and move on to more important matters.

In other words, to quote René Descartes “cogito ergo sum”… “I think therefore I am”.

*The discussion was so engaging I have actually created a new topic of philosophy on this blog! Although since it is usually relegated to ‘drunk talk’,  I doubt this topic will be utilised much at all.  Perhaps that is a reflection of my optimism in suggesting that I wont’ be drunk frequently enough to discuss these topics.  But i suspect there will be ample opportunity for this sort of thing.

8 Responses to “My general thoughts/views”

  1. Pete C Says:

    Your post makes me question a lot of things, a very informative post into the ways of your thinking (and also your larking about when drunk, i’ve not seen that side of you ;) ). Over my life, I have similarly questioned faith in the same ways you have. I was brought up as a Christian, but even when young, I never took to it in terms of blind faith, I always questioned, and was un unruly bastard in sunday school. But anyway, I never took to religion on a whole. As I’m sure it came up and was agreed on in your discussion, some of the driving ideas behind religion are great, peace with others, community spirit, helping people etc. but all of these are marred by the original purposes of some religions, atleast catholicism and christianity I know for certain were used as control methods. This is something I don’t approve of. Further to this, there are a lot of ideals that I hold close to me, and I honestly question whether there is or isn’t a “God”, but this questioning for me is often brought to an early close by indecisiveness. “What is a God?” “What is considered an act of God?” these questions I cannot answer, I mean, is a God someone who has the power to create all? Or is it merely a being on a higher level of existance? Then these questinos bring up further questions; What is a higher plane of existance, and does it even exist? How can such existential things be defined when our minds cannot cope with it?

    To agree with you, when I look at it from a scientific point of view, I cannot see any proof what so ever that a God exists. Therefore I cannot believe that he does. What I can do though is ponder. The Human mind is capable of many great things, as we acn see by the empires and technology we have built around ourselves to make life easier, and more comfortable. Humans are also creatures of greed, which brings the wars and fighting over things like oil, and creatures of animal instinct, territorialism etc. I occasionally hear arguements liek “If God exists, why does he let war happen?” and they always amuse me. Not because I’m pro-war, I’m quite the opposite, but because whenever I think of that, I think of two scenarios:

    Scenario A: God doesn’t exist, and war is happening because humans are creatures given in to their own desires, creating feuds and battles wherever their hearts take them. OK, pretty generalised to the whole race, but in isntances it happens, but not for the majority.

    Scenario B (The one that makes me laugh the most): God does exist, and war is happening because humas are creatures…. hearts take them. God is letting it happen because he himself is what we consider a “scientist”, observing without intefering, seeing what happens with such and such a mixture of this and that. Maybe he has millions and billions of different universes he just occasionally pops in to have a look and see how it goes. The reason this makes me laugh so incredibly much is because I picture this God as a mad scientist, hell bent on making people perform in his experiments for his, and possibly others, pleasure. Kinda makes me think of The Truman Show.

    In either of these scenarios, or the infinite more that exist, one thing is for certain. Someone will always look for an answer. Who knows what that answer will be, in the future it may be that God does exist, as soon as there is irrefutable proof, I think that 99.999% of the population will believe in this God, and follow some form of religion, but again definitions change there, as one mansview on religion will not be anothers. I’m not sure what mine is! Anyway, I went away to get a drink and have lost my chain of thought on this, maybe one day I’ll pick it up again.

    On to the next part though, Do we (you, I, he and she etc) exist? Hell if I know! How do I know that you exist, and are not some figment of my personal imagination, and that this all isn’t imagined by me to work, the internet, this computer, everything around me, how do I know that it isn’t just another thing in my consciousness. I believe, and this is pretty much what you said, that we do exist, because we can think and pose the question, do I exist? Or even because I can sense in some way that there si matter about me, and that I am matter. That is not to say tha tthings without consciousness don’t exist, they might not, but to me they do, because I can experiance them, I can see, touch, contemplate, and imagine such things.

    Anyhow, you owe me a pint, and I owe you one if you read this (the whole thing, not just skipping to the end to see what you’ve won!). So, pints some time, and maybe if we have enough we can play fighter wees. Out windows. From the top of a building. Or something.

  2. Mr. D Says:

    Apologies… I did read this post a while ago and was in the middle of responding but then got distracted.

    I will try to clear up some of the things I have said previously.

    Forgetting about the whole philosphical type stuff for now as I really feel it would get us nowhere if we knew the answer to that question.

    When I refer to God I am talking about the theistic divine intervention type God (or Gods). In other words ones that interacted or are claimed to have interacted with the natural world. The reason I feel I must contrain this view of God is that it has the form of a hypothesis that makes predictions about the observable universe. ie: “God is responsible for this” or “God made x happen because of y” etc… There is of course the other idea that God lit the touch paper and set everything going, then stepped back to watch. That hypothesis is reduntant as it doesn’t solve any of the problems of our origin, it just makes spurious guesses and makes no predictions about the natural world.

    Now a God that intervenes, that’s testable! But guess what… no proof.

    Ermmm… I was going to say more I think but I’ve lost my chain of thought.

    I would strongly advise you to read “The God Delusion”. Richard Dawkins puts forward a series of very compelling arguments and it really cleared a lot of things up for me. Also I have a spare copy if you want to borrow it. :D

  3. Pete Says:

    Hum, what a suspicious set of circumstances… Part of me, for purely comical reasons, wants to beleive that you bought that spare copy just for making other people read, but then part of me finds it impossible that you didn’t, because I believe that things like this should be shared. But anyway, I’ll have to read it to find out if that’s true, so yeah, I’ll borrow it at some point \o/

    But yes, as of now, I see no proof of an interveneing God, so what is there to believe?

  4. Pete Says:

    addendum: http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=1177#comic

  5. Mr. D Says:

    Hmm… I’m not exactly sure what you mean by that. I can tell you that my owning two copies was a complete accident. At any rate I’d gladly lend it you if I had just the one.

    I think what actually happened was that I unwittingly added a copy to my basket the night before but then didn’t finalise the transaction. I then went on Amazon the next day, added a copy to my basket and purchased two by mistake! I didn’t realise until the package came in the post.

    Anyway, when are you around next? I will gladly lend you that book and any others that interest you.

  6. Pete C Says:

    As it happens, I’m back in nottinghamat the start of november, pretty much permenantly now. Leavinguni with my BSc Combined Studies (Ordinary). So sooner than you think. Unfortunately this means you can’t come up to edinburgh and have AWESOME sushi, but I will be much closer to come visit :D

    What I meant was that sometimes when I read a good book, I decide to buy another copy soIcanhaveonmyselfandlend one out willy-nilly. Of course I never actually do because I’ve not really readmuch other than a few ebooks lately. Mostly it was jest because I partly find that idea funny, yet good at the same time, if I think other people should read what I’ve read because I enjoyed it that much. :)

  7. Mr. D Says:

    Ah, that does make sense. I normally get by lending them to people and then when I get them back I read them again, if I fancy it. I must say there aren’t many books I’ve read more than once.

    November eh? That is a lot sooner than I thought. Well that is rather good, you will have to come down to Leicester at some point then. I plan to come up to Nottingham at some point in the next month or so to see if i can procure a squash racket.

  8. Pete Says:

    I have two, one of which has a broken plastic bit on the top but is still in great nick otherwise. I love a good gam of squash, even though I’m highly out of practice. maybe I will come play I Leicester. can give you one.

    And yeah, back a loot sooner than I thought, too, oh well. I have my degree, just no honours.

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